# Taking bibliographical notes (ZK nomenclature)
**URL:** https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/taking-bibliographical-notes-zk-nomenclature/3384
**Category:** Requests
**Created:** [March 6, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/taking-bibliographical-notes-zk-nomenclature/3384 "2024-03-06T20:05:05Z")
**Posts on this page:** 7
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@MikeAnblips](https://org-roam.discourse.group/u/MikeAnblips)
#### Post date: [March 6, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/taking-bibliographical-notes-zk-nomenclature/3384/1 "2024-03-06T20:05:05Z")
**EDIT 03/09/24** It turns out there are some related elements that’s worth putting together here:
- this [post](https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/org-capture-template-expansion-properties-prompt-references/2993) on this platform deals with a similar effect with `:PROPERTIES:` being added in a _separate_ drawer. Somehow related (like in my case) with the use of prompts
- this [issue report](https://github.com/org-roam/org-roam/issues/1783) deals with the same topic
* * *
Hi, first post here, go easy on me 🙂
I would like to implement a Zettelkasten or slip-box and I am now focusing on creation of the bibliographical notes. These are, in my definition, a single note per paper/book/web-page, containing a :ROAM\_REFS: property wich either has - automagically created - a CITEKEY citation link or a web address in case of a web publication like a blog post, tutorial, you name it.
As far as the CITEKEY part is concerned, I have found a way to obtain a first success, doing the following:
1. install `biblio`, to be able to search and insert records in one’s bib file by drawing info from databases like CrossRef and the like.
2. install `org-roam-bibtex` and `ivy-bibtex`. The first should integrate bibtex-like bibliographical information into org-roam nodes and templates, while the latter is a completion system to browse one’s bib files, but also ultimately gave me “the key” to a bibliographical note.
3. `M-x ivy-bibtex`, then insert a few words, select the target record, `M-o e` to effectively create a note.
Having activated `org-roam-bibtex-mode` (BTW, how to do it by default? Is it **not** default because I am not in an `org` buffer to start with?) the associate note editing function called from within `ivy-bibtex` does what is needed at a basic level:
Now, I would like to add two custom features, namely:
1. Store this type of notes in a sub-folder and not where my other “main nodes” reside
2. Add some keywords in the property drawer
That’s where the issues arise and where I need your wisdom 😃
I could not trace back where the templates are defined/used for the specific note creation function, so I have tried to add another template to the default, in order to be able to implement those customizations. The relevant `init.el` portion looks then like this:
```auto
(use-package org-roam
:ensure t
:custom
(org-roam-directory "m:/ZK")
(org-roam-capture-templates
'(("d" "default" plain
"%?"
:if-new (file+head "%<%Y%m%d%H%M%S>-${slug}.org" "#+title: ${title}\n")
:unnarrowed t)
("r" "reference" plain
"%?"
:if-new (file+head "reference/${citekey}.org"
":PROPERTIES:
:KEY:
:ROAM_REFS:[cite:@${citekey}]
:END:
#+title: ${title}\n")
:unnarrowed t)))
:bind (("C-c n l" . org-roam-buffer-toggle)
("C-c n f" . org-roam-node-find)
("C-c n i" . org-roam-node-insert))
:config
(org-roam-db-autosync-enable)
)
```
I added a new template that saves the note in a different location with the `${citekey}` variable as file name, then it **should** add a bunch of properties, among which I just tried to define a test one, “KEY”. It’s just a try at this point.
However, what comes out is this:
```auto
:PROPERTIES:
:ID: 6a4f9129-488b-44b3-9a8e-e5722dea9902
:ROAM_REFS: cite:Lou
:END:
:PROPERTIES:
:KEY:
:ROAM_REFS:[cite:@Lou]
:END:
#+title: Design of cmos rf low-noise amplifiers and mixer for wireless applications
```
The note is created in the location I indicated, so this is good.
However, the original template (the one I don’t know where it’s located or how to modify) is not extended, it is just put there, closed with the `:END:` and then my stuff is appended.
Of course then the second `:ROAM_REFS:` key is totally redundant, I could just remove it from the template, but I’d still like to have the extra properties before the `:END:`.
Finally, the question: how do I handle the creation of notes via a more flexible template, that adds properties where they should normally go?
Maybe I should just settle for adding properties after the `#+title` line, with the alternative
`+#PROPERTY` syntax and be happy?
Any comments, thoughts and suggestions very welcome!!
Michele
P.S.
I found this very elegant [solution](https://jethrokuan.github.io/org-roam-guide/) by Jethro Kuan, which however I would have to adapt to work with `ivy-bibtex` and not `citar`, as I don’t have it and would not llike to add another package just for this…
---
### Author:  [@nobiot](https://org-roam.discourse.group/u/nobiot)
#### Post date: [March 7, 2024, 7:28am UTC](https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/taking-bibliographical-notes-zk-nomenclature/3384/2 "2024-03-07T07:28:42Z")
@MikeAnblips
This is weird. I don’t use org-roam-bibtex, so I tried this just now and had no double-up of PROPERTIES.
```emac-lisp
(setq org-roam-capture-templates
'(("r" "reference" plain
"%?"
:if-new (file+head "test.org"
":PROPERTIES:
:KEY:
:ROAM_REFS: value
:END:
#+title: ${title}\n"))))
```
Jethro’s configuration does not seem specific to Citar for adding additional properties directly in the template like you, he and I all have done. I didn’t think org-roam-bibtex did anything special for this part…
How do you capture the one you referrred to above? It’s not via org-roam-capture, is it?
---
### Author:  [@nobiot](https://org-roam.discourse.group/u/nobiot)
#### Post date: [March 7, 2024, 7:35am UTC](https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/taking-bibliographical-notes-zk-nomenclature/3384/3 "2024-03-07T07:35:47Z")
By the way, the ID property is added by a function during the capture process where it creates a new buffer: `org-roam-capture--setup-target-location` (at the bottom, there is a function call to `org-id-get` if there is no ID present in the buffer yet).
My understanding is that because this process is done after the capture text is added, `org-id-get` function simply appends the ID to this property drawer that the template adds in – this is the reason why the ID property is the last property in my example above – At least this is how I understand the capture process works for org-roam.
---
### Author:  [@MikeAnblips](https://org-roam.discourse.group/u/MikeAnblips)
#### Post date: [March 7, 2024, 8:41am UTC](https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/taking-bibliographical-notes-zk-nomenclature/3384/4 "2024-03-07T08:41:21Z")
@nobiot
Thanks for your reply!
> [@nobiot](#):
>
> This is weird. I don’t use org-roam-bibtex, so I tried this just now and had no double-up of PROPERTIES.
Yeah, I should have been clearer in my explanation…
First, let me declare my **goal** : I would like to be able to _query_ my bibliographical data (e.g. my `.bib` file) for a specific record (citation), relative to which I can create an org-roam style note, i.e. one:
- with a unique ID
- with a `:ROAM_REFS:` property carrying the relevant CITEKEY
- **extra features** :
- custom save path
- custom `:PROPERTIES:`
To this end, I set up the flow described above, which starts with a call to `ivy-bibtex` for searching the records stored in my `.bib` file, then, from within the `ivy-bibtex` buffer, use `M-o` to access the function menu and choose `e` → for “edit note”.
This last operation, which is bound to the `ivy` function and then to the `org-roam` function for note creation, does the “magic” of inserting the `cite` link in the `:ROAM_REFS:` property and the rest.
I could not understand/find how to modify this function, which is “hopping” from `ivy` to `bibtex-completion-edit-note` to `bibtex-completion-edit-note-function` which is then set by `(org-roam-bibtex-mode 1)` to point to - finally - `(orb-org-ref-edit-note CITEKEY)` function… I cannot understand how the last function really works as I am not familiar with `lisp` and am a **very** basic programmer.
Therefore, I resorted to trying and modifying the templates, by adding a “reference” template which I showed above.
Now, onto your question.
If I just `M-x org-roam-find-node` and use my template definition (it’s in the previous post), I do get this double-counting:
```auto
:PROPERTIES:
:ID: d0dc7637-b758-45f1-b912-d5da5c5d2d10
:END:
:PROPERTIES:
:KEY:
:ROAM_REFS:[cite:@FakeCite]
:END:
#+title: New Reference No(T|D)e
```
TBH, I don’t know why ☹
Your template looks basically the same of mine, the only differences are that you are not inserting the `${citekey}` bits but just giving straight values…
If you have any suggestions on how to “debug” this, I’m all ears.
The other thing I wish to mention is that inserting a node like I’ve done above does not fulfill my purpose, because there is no CITEKEY search involved: I should just insert it myself and that’s not necessarily what I want to do all the time. I’d rather have a searching facility in place when I am creating such notes, so that’s why I resorted to `ivy-bibtex`.
> [@nobiot](#):
>
> Jethro’s configuration does not seem specific to Citar for adding additional properties directly in the template like you, he and I all have done. I didn’t think org-roam-bibtex did anything special for this part…
What I am referring to is that - from my limited understanding - the note creation process in Jethro’s function goes through a CITEKEY (and possibly other elements) retrieval, operated by the `citar` module. At least, this is how I understand this part of his code:
```auto
(defun jethro/org-roam-node-from-cite (keys-entries)
(interactive (list (citar-select-ref :multiple nil :rebuild-cache t)))
(let ((title (citar--format-entry-no-widths (cdr keys-entries)
"${author editor} :: ${title}")))
```
That `citar-select-ref` and thereabouts should be, I think, a way of retrieving the CITEKEY from a search… Which is exactly what I am up to. Only, I would like **not** to add another package if possible.
Or let’s just say I would like to have the feeling that I know a bit what I’m doing 😃
Thanks for any insight!
Michele
---
### Author:  [@MikeAnblips](https://org-roam.discourse.group/u/MikeAnblips)
#### Post date: [March 7, 2024, 9:26am UTC](https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/taking-bibliographical-notes-zk-nomenclature/3384/5 "2024-03-07T09:26:24Z")
**EDIT 03/08/24** : it looks like the issue I was reporting is not something isolated. I did not read the full thread but in this report the behaviour is the same one I was struggling with (double drawer insertion)
>
>
> \### Brief Abstract
> Enable user to add custom properties and prompts in capture …templates to the file-level \`:PROPERTIES:\` drawer.
>
> \### Long Description
>
> On Org-roam v2, when capturing a new note, Org-roam automatically adds
>
> :PROPERTIES:
> :ID: 9e8d2f1f-526f-4281-8be0-b4193200595e
> :END:
>
> but doesn’t enable the user to customize it through \`org-roam-capture-templates\` (at least doesn't seem to be documented). Thus, the user is unable to set on the template Org-roam properties like \`:ROAM\_ALIASES: %^{aliases}\` or custom properties when capturing a new note. On Org-roam v1 the user was able to set for example aliases while capturing a new note because Org-roam recognized ROAM\_ALIASES as \`#+ROAM\_ALIASES:\`.
>
> Adding a new properties drawer (which will result in the below) in the capture template doesn’t work. The same is true for \`#+PROPERTY: ROAM\_ALIASES alias\`.
>
> :PROPERTIES:
> :ID: 9e8d2f1f-526f-4281-8be0-b4193200595e
> :END:
>
> :PROPERTIES:
> :ROAM\_ALIASES: "doesn't work"
> :END:
>
> P.S. Org-mode doesn’t support file-level template expansion for properties, i.e. \`%^{ROAM\_ALIASES}p\` set on file-level doesn’t work.
>
> \### Proposed Implementation (if any)
>
> \### Please check the following:
>
> \- \[X\] No similar feature requests
* * *
… And final twist (see below for the first one :-D)
It turns out - don’t ask me why as I don’t know - that somehow the structure I had put in the `:ROAM_REFS:` part of my previous template, namely:
```auto
("r" "reference" plain
"%?"
:if-new (file+head "reference/${citekey}.org"
":PROPERTIES:
:KEY:
:ROAM_REFS:[cite:@${citekey}]
:END:
#+title: ${title}\n")
```
Was causing mayhem. I patiently sarted from your _verbatim_ template, @nobiot, and saw that it translated beautifully, no issues whatsoever (see below, first edit).
I then went on substituting the `${citekey}` token for the file name at first: a plain variable substitution took place, the node was not showing any repetition.
Same thing for insertion of the second `${citekey}` in the `:ROAM_REFS:` property…
Third, I changed the `cite` link syntax with respect to what I gathered from Jethro’s function. He writes this:
`:ROAM_REFS: [cite:@${citekey}]`
I went for a simpler:
`:ROAM_REFS: cite:${citekey}`
… And this did the trick! I now have everything as I want, and the reference notes are created according to what one would expect, without repetition!
```auto
:PROPERTIES:
:KEY:
:ROAM_REFS: cite:nguyen2015radio
:ID: 0aed351c-7c15-4a49-9ba6-93b66d73293e
:END:
#+title: Radio-Frequency Integrated-Circuit Engineering
This now works flawlessly!!
```
It is also interesting to note that the engine ‘cleverizes’ my dumb template, it does not add an extra `:PROPERITES:` line, or a double `:END:` line for that matter… It nicely merges the internal information of the `:ID:` with my custom properties, no hassle.
It would be interesting to understand a little deeper, what in Jethro’s syntax applied to my case created this sort of doubling…
* * *
* * *
(_first edit_)
Interesting twist!!
@nobiot If I reproduce your template _verbatim_, then I also get no repetitions in the `:PROPERTIES:`!!
So, it seems that the insertion of `${}` elements might trigger some extra action…
---
### Author:  [@nobiot](https://org-roam.discourse.group/u/nobiot)
#### Post date: [March 7, 2024, 11:54am UTC](https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/taking-bibliographical-notes-zk-nomenclature/3384/6 "2024-03-07T11:54:39Z")
> [@MikeAnblips](#):
>
> … And this did the trick! I now have everything as I want, and the reference notes are created according to what one would expect, without repetition!
Glad it worked out for you. As to why the first attempt didn’t work, I would have to debug the evaluation interactively line by line with edebug.
Don’t think you would have to trouble yourself this much.
---
### Author:  [@MikeAnblips](https://org-roam.discourse.group/u/MikeAnblips)
#### Post date: [March 7, 2024, 11:57am UTC](https://org-roam.discourse.group/t/taking-bibliographical-notes-zk-nomenclature/3384/7 "2024-03-07T11:57:51Z")
I’ve learned a lot thanks to your insights, @nobiot, so thank you!
The last thing learned: there is a thing called edebug with which you can (hope to) debug lisp!